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| neck resets on factory guitars http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=42145 |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | neck resets on factory guitars |
Has anyone done a neck reset on factory guitars except for known good ones such as $3000+ Gibsons/Martins? I noticed on many factory guitars (in particular the less expensive ones) the neck is solidly glued in, and there's a very thick wall of finish on the neck joint. I've attempted to steam one such guitar and the neck would not budge, even though the rest of the guitar is more or less falling apart (joint between the back and the neck block becoming compromised). I ended up taking the guitar apart destructively (before you say anything, it does not belong to a customer) and still found the neck was glued in with hide glue like substance but for whatever reason, the steam would not penetrate deeper than about half inch, and that the dovetail was so well fitted that it just did not want to come off. Is it usual for guitars like this to be so difficult to remove the neck, and what would you do if a customer asked you to do a neck reset on it (and don't mind paying whatever it costs to do it)? On that guitar I discovered the joint was very well fitted, and that glue was used everywhere, not only in the dovetail but also on the face of the heel. The way I do dovetail is I only put glue on the face of the dovetail, and it does not come off until you use about a minute of steam. |
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| Author: | Shaw [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: neck resets on factory guitars |
I did a cheap harmony model and it was a dovetail and it was hide glue. It came out pretty easy. I did a Yamaha and it didn't come out easy. It was mystery glue. It wasn't epoxy but I don't think it was regular wood glue neither. I think they were using this industrial type of glues that they used in the cheap factory furniture constructions. Now some cheap guitars have dowed neck joints or they are just epoxied together so steaming doesn't work. Sometimes it's best to use a very thing flush cutting type of saw and cut them off. ...Mike |
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| Author: | Ryan Mazzocco [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: neck resets on factory guitars |
Shaw wrote: Sometimes it's best to use a very thing flush cutting type of saw and cut them off. ...Mike +1 I had a mid to late 70s era Alvarez guitar that had the same kind of joint that you seem to be describing. I had a terrible fit with that thing. it was more or less a dovetail, but the joint didn't come all the way out to the 15th fret slot. so when I steamed it it wasn't going into the joint. I cut off the fretboard extension and steamed directly into the joint. it loosened the headblock, the top and the binding and perflings, but the dovetail remained firmly solid. Like you, I thought it was hide glue as well but it did not behave at all like hide glue so it must have been some other mystery glue. I ended up having to just saw the neck off. I have yet to finish working on it but it will have to be converted to a bolt on. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: neck resets on factory guitars |
What's a reasonable price to ask for such work? I don't have an autopsy bone saw like Frank Ford... I'm pretty sure upon hearing that most would just discard the guitar... Do manufacturers of those guitars really want the guitar to be disposable? No wonder the rain forest is disappearing... we keep manufacturing disposable products. |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: neck resets on factory guitars |
Tai Fu wrote: Do manufacturers of those guitars really want the guitar to be disposable? No wonder the rain forest is disappearing... we keep manufacturing disposable products. Have you not noticed, that is the general trend with most manufactured goods.............!!!!! Tom |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: neck resets on factory guitars |
There are a few techniques to take off necks. I no longer cut a neck off unless I really have to. The best method I found is to take off the fretboard by cutting it 2 or 3 frets up the neck and take off the fretboard. Then you can access the joint. If you need to drill down to get the needle in to separate the heel. Sometimes you are dealing with epoxy ( real cheap ) or doweled ( cheap ) but you can redowel. I am a CF Martin repair center. when we do a reset we do use some glue on the heel to butter the joint more as a fill than really gluing. That is how I was taught at the factory. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: neck resets on factory guitars |
I guess that makes sense... no matter how well I do a neck joint there are always some visible gaps, but not enough to stick anything through it yet enough to be seen. Customers obviously see them as a defect but glue fill fixes that. I've done it before with medium CA and they have absolutely no structure. As soon as the main dovetail joint is loose the whole thing is loose. |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: neck resets on factory guitars |
Unless the mystery glue is Urea Formaldehyde (powdered resin), in which case it has no known solvent. Not heat, steam, water or alcohol. Nothing. You have no option but to cut off the Neck. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: neck resets on factory guitars |
There are a couple of ways to do "non standard" neck resets on cheap guitars. One way is to "slip the end block". Loosen the back and a bit of the sides next to it, tilt the neck back and reglue the end block to the back. Trim the back and reglue the binding. It was once an accepted way to do things, but it does slightly distort the sides, and as better ways were found it became unacceptable for fine quality instruments. Cutting the neck loose and making a bolt on as Frank Ford shows is another way to go. You can find an oscillating saw much cheaper than Frank's, at Harbor Freight. I bought the blue one and one of the cheaper red ones in the linked to page. The blue one is heavier, variable speed, runs smoother and has more attachments with it. I think it is the better deal of the two. When I bought it I thought it was cheap enough for occasional use, but I have found a lot of other uses for the saw beyond cutting necks off guitars. I am not a big fan of HF motorized tools but I have been happy with the saw so far. Resetting the neck on a cheap guitar is a balancing act between making the guitar functional and cosmetically acceptable at a price that doesn't exceed what the guitar is worth. Some compromise is inevitable and the client needs to understand that before the work is done. http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsea ... lating+saw |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: neck resets on factory guitars |
Yea, I am guessing slip the end block method was probably used for spanish heel guitars... after all that's about the only way to do it. You can't cut the neck off of a spanish heel guitar, the side will pop off. |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: neck resets on factory guitars |
Well you can because the sides will still be held by the Soundboard and the Back. The best way to reset the Spanish heel is to completely remove the Back. At least that way you can add a shim to the underside of the foot. Still distorts the sides a touch though. |
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